Another response
The debate continues.
jc charges liberals with only seeing what they want as he then points to circumstances 23 years ago for his father-in-law. Such is the limitation of conservatives who want to live in and constantly point to the past. Its 2006 and things have changed. We are talking about immigration policy, or lack of it, in 2006, not 1983.
Over-population? There are over 1.2 million illegal immigrants coming in each year right now, (and probably more). They are here whether we have the immigration policy or not. The concern is simple; why allow reasonable immigration from other countries, but not from Mexico? Why? The answer from the conservatives usually talks about over-population and there being too many now who come in illegally. So let me get this straight, we don't allow them to come here legally, they come anyway, and our argument is that we can't make it legal because there are too many already here. Okay.
Too many? Are there 'too many' blacks; 'too many' Irish; 'too many' Italians; 'too many' English; 'too many' Native Amerians? If we agree that there are too many, who gets to decide what there are too many of? Are we choosing the Hispanics because "we were here first?" I don't think jc wants to go down that road, especially if he lives in "Ute" tah. Or in New "Mexico." Either one makes the point. Oh wait, we are choosing the Hispanics because they are here illegally and need to leave. Hold that thought for now.
America is the greatest land on earth; greatest of all time. I am grateful to my heritage who came here legally. They had Ellis Island to do it. The Mexicans do not have an Ellis Island. Are they less deserving than we? I only hope that if my own personal heritage did not have an Ellis Island, that they would have come anyway. I, and jc, could be a Scottish Campbell right now, but our government allowed immigration; we had our Ellis Island.
To jc, don't just be glad yourself that you are an American (and don't want anyone else to be), be glad that our (yours and mine) skin isn't brown. The conservatives (you I guess) would be doing all they (you I guess) could be doing to keep (us I guess) out.
Back to over-population, the baby-boomers are coming of age and there will continue to be more jobs than people to fill them. It's not 1983 any more (Dorothy is not in Kansas any more). Study after study has shown that the work done by illegal immigrants grows the economy. We get anecdotal stories of someone who isn't working because of illegal immigration, but the truth tells a different story. Find a study that says anything other than the simple fact that the work done by illegal immigrants grows the economy; find it and we can talk further. By the way, finding another anecdotal story spins the truth, it doesn't address it.
What's not good for the economy, and yours and my pocket book, is that the hiring illegal immigrants means that they don't have health insurance. If we get in a car wreck with one or twelve, they don't have auto insurance. If they are not on an offical payroll, they don't pay taxes. WHY? Because we don't allow them to come here legally. Make provisions for legal immigration and they can get health insurance, car insurance and pay taxes. By the way, in Utah, they can, and most do, get an worker number and pay taxes--something that you will not hear a conservative talk about much. It hurts their agrument and reduces their passion on the subject. In spite of all of the above, study after study still shows an economic benefit to illegal immigration. Just think how much better that benefit would be if we allowed legal immigration.
There is the issue of health care costs. They are sky-rocketing and illegal immigration makes it worse. So, go ahead, let's not allow legal immigration and then continue to complain about health care costs. Go ahead. The three-year old illegal Hispanic girl who needs an appendectomy to live could care less, and niether could I.
Finally, the solution is not one side of this issue or the other; it is in the dailogue. jc is part of the solution, because unless he is heard (along with everyone else of similar views and passion) we will never, ever come to a resolution. I, along with everyone else who shares my views and my passion on the subject, are not the answer. jc, along with everyone who shares his views and his passion on the subject, are also not the answer. Together, we can discover the answer, but it needs be done together. Thus, this blog.
jc charges liberals with only seeing what they want as he then points to circumstances 23 years ago for his father-in-law. Such is the limitation of conservatives who want to live in and constantly point to the past. Its 2006 and things have changed. We are talking about immigration policy, or lack of it, in 2006, not 1983.
Over-population? There are over 1.2 million illegal immigrants coming in each year right now, (and probably more). They are here whether we have the immigration policy or not. The concern is simple; why allow reasonable immigration from other countries, but not from Mexico? Why? The answer from the conservatives usually talks about over-population and there being too many now who come in illegally. So let me get this straight, we don't allow them to come here legally, they come anyway, and our argument is that we can't make it legal because there are too many already here. Okay.
Too many? Are there 'too many' blacks; 'too many' Irish; 'too many' Italians; 'too many' English; 'too many' Native Amerians? If we agree that there are too many, who gets to decide what there are too many of? Are we choosing the Hispanics because "we were here first?" I don't think jc wants to go down that road, especially if he lives in "Ute" tah. Or in New "Mexico." Either one makes the point. Oh wait, we are choosing the Hispanics because they are here illegally and need to leave. Hold that thought for now.
America is the greatest land on earth; greatest of all time. I am grateful to my heritage who came here legally. They had Ellis Island to do it. The Mexicans do not have an Ellis Island. Are they less deserving than we? I only hope that if my own personal heritage did not have an Ellis Island, that they would have come anyway. I, and jc, could be a Scottish Campbell right now, but our government allowed immigration; we had our Ellis Island.
To jc, don't just be glad yourself that you are an American (and don't want anyone else to be), be glad that our (yours and mine) skin isn't brown. The conservatives (you I guess) would be doing all they (you I guess) could be doing to keep (us I guess) out.
Back to over-population, the baby-boomers are coming of age and there will continue to be more jobs than people to fill them. It's not 1983 any more (Dorothy is not in Kansas any more). Study after study has shown that the work done by illegal immigrants grows the economy. We get anecdotal stories of someone who isn't working because of illegal immigration, but the truth tells a different story. Find a study that says anything other than the simple fact that the work done by illegal immigrants grows the economy; find it and we can talk further. By the way, finding another anecdotal story spins the truth, it doesn't address it.
What's not good for the economy, and yours and my pocket book, is that the hiring illegal immigrants means that they don't have health insurance. If we get in a car wreck with one or twelve, they don't have auto insurance. If they are not on an offical payroll, they don't pay taxes. WHY? Because we don't allow them to come here legally. Make provisions for legal immigration and they can get health insurance, car insurance and pay taxes. By the way, in Utah, they can, and most do, get an worker number and pay taxes--something that you will not hear a conservative talk about much. It hurts their agrument and reduces their passion on the subject. In spite of all of the above, study after study still shows an economic benefit to illegal immigration. Just think how much better that benefit would be if we allowed legal immigration.
There is the issue of health care costs. They are sky-rocketing and illegal immigration makes it worse. So, go ahead, let's not allow legal immigration and then continue to complain about health care costs. Go ahead. The three-year old illegal Hispanic girl who needs an appendectomy to live could care less, and niether could I.
Finally, the solution is not one side of this issue or the other; it is in the dailogue. jc is part of the solution, because unless he is heard (along with everyone else of similar views and passion) we will never, ever come to a resolution. I, along with everyone else who shares my views and my passion on the subject, are not the answer. jc, along with everyone who shares his views and his passion on the subject, are also not the answer. Together, we can discover the answer, but it needs be done together. Thus, this blog.
posted by Ron Campbell at 8:58 AM
7 Comments:
Hooray, it is in the dialog. For anyone who doesn't understand that, then why in the name of heaven haven't we fix it yet? It is in the DIALOG that is long overdue
Right. In the meantime we are being overrun. I have a dialog for you, "Get out of Dodge."
Keep it up out there. This is called a dialog.
Also, to 2nd anonymous, that's not a dialogue; it's the very reason we aren't getting anywhere. Is there anyone out there who is willing to debate this; a real debate, not a diatribe, however short and sweet that diatribe message may be? "Get out of Dodge," I think I used that phrase when I was 12. This blog is dedicated to the real dialogue.
Challenge statement: Get in the dialogue, whether anonymous or known. I prefer to remain anonymous, but I prefer to be heard. Go amnesty.
A few things seem pretty clear. Trying to have a debate with a liberal is an activity that rarely has results. You see all that I am getting is comments that try to make us “non-bleeding-heart-liberals” look like a bunch of racists. And I quote:
“Too many? Are there 'too many' blacks; 'too many' Irish; 'too many' Italians; 'too many' English; 'too many' Native Amerians?”
When the h*** did I say there were “Too many” Hispanics??? I recall saying that there are signs of overpopulation. And my point to that is that why should we “allow” people to come over here illegally. I don’t care if they are brown, yellow, red, purple, WHITE, or if they have pink and yellow dots all over them! Illegal is illegal! And my point STILL stands… If they want to “break laws” to make a better life… GO FOR IT! Bring up arms against their OWN country! Or.. wait.. here is a concept…don’t break the law!!!!!!! Come over here the LEGAL and correct way, get a job the legal and correct way and take those jobs that none of us “racist, lazy, no family value, white folk” want to take… Well, according to liberals that’s what we are… If fact, I have a co-worker that is here the legal way and has a job that I would LOVE! It makes about 80k-100k a year... Not so bad.. And wait!!! I DON'T MIND!! In fact.. MORE POWER TO HER!!!! You are missing the point. I don’t have ANY problem with ANY law abiding person coming over here! Legally!!! And if you BHL’s think that we should just open the border, then think about the issues: Energy shortages (seen that!), pollution (seen that a time or two), do I really need to repeat myself?!?
Yes, in a perfect world there would be no problems with any of this. Today however, is not a perfect world. I do appreciate that there are people who strive for that perfect world. It keeps a good balance to those who are realistic about the fact that we live in a world that has right and wrong, good and bad, rich and poor. I think there is a country or two that has what you are looking for. A country that has no rich, no poor (well, kind of),.. Oh wait… I think they call that SOCIALISM…. If you really want that… I’m gonna miss ya dad when you move there, because I don’t really plan to move to any socialist country.
One more thing... My father-in-law's last job in 2006... cleaning the bathrooms at a wholesale club.. Hmmm, I guess there are people willing to take those jobs today to help support their family..
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