Original Intent

The original intent here was to have a dialogue, not a diatribe of ridicule and personal attacks. PLEASE. Thanks to jc, Phil and now Steve for avoiding personal attacks and ridicule. As for those anonymous out there, PLEASE! We can attack another's view, but not them, please. A "moronic view "is far better than saying "moron." Even "idiotic view" is far better than saying "idiot."

The dialogue is helping me understand others' views on this and better understand, and even change, my own.

Thank you jc, Phil and Steve.

jc's Comments

A few things seem pretty clear. Trying to have a debate with a liberal is an activity that rarely has results. You see all that I am getting is comments that try to make us “non-bleeding-heart-liberals” look like a bunch of racists. And I quote:“Too many? Are there 'too many' blacks; 'too many' Irish; 'too many' Italians; 'too many' English; 'too many' Native Amerians?”When the h*** did I say there were “Too many” Hispanics??? I recall saying that there are signs of overpopulation. And my point to that is that why should we “allow” people to come over here illegally. I don’t care if they are brown, yellow, red, purple, WHITE, or if they have pink and yellow dots all over them! Illegal is illegal! And my point STILL stands… If they want to “break laws” to make a better life… GO FOR IT! Bring up arms against their OWN country! Or.. wait.. here is a concept…don’t break the law!!!!!!! Come over here the LEGAL and correct way, get a job the legal and correct way and take those jobs that none of us “racist, lazy, no family value, white folk” want to take… Well, according to liberals that’s what we are… If fact, I have a co-worker that is here the legal way and has a job that I would LOVE! It makes about 80k-100k a year... Not so bad.. And wait!!! I DON'T MIND!! In fact.. MORE POWER TO HER!!!! You are missing the point. I don’t have ANY problem with ANY law abiding person coming over here! Legally!!! And if you BHL’s think that we should just open the border, then think about the issues: Energy shortages (seen that!), pollution (seen that a time or two), do I really need to repeat myself?!? Yes, in a perfect world there would be no problems with any of this. Today however, is not a perfect world. I do appreciate that there are people who strive for that perfect world. It keeps a good balance to those who are realistic about the fact that we live in a world that has right and wrong, good and bad, rich and poor. I think there is a country or two that has what you are looking for. A country that has no rich, no poor (well, kind of),.. Oh wait… I think they call that SOCIALISM…. If you really want that… I’m gonna miss ya dad when you move there, because I don’t really plan to move to any socialist country.

jc

Suggestion to new viewers

If you have not followed the debate in this blog, it is suggested that you link to the list of "Previous Post" directly on the right; from the bottom and working your way up the list. Make sure that you click on "Comments" of each post to get a clear picture of the debate so far. Then, add your own voice to the debate, if you wish.

If you would like for me to post your comments as a "post" rather than hidden in the "Comments" section, I will do it (you must identify who you are before I will do this). Send your comments to campbellrv@gmail.com.

Another response

The debate continues.

jc charges liberals with only seeing what they want as he then points to circumstances 23 years ago for his father-in-law. Such is the limitation of conservatives who want to live in and constantly point to the past. Its 2006 and things have changed. We are talking about immigration policy, or lack of it, in 2006, not 1983.

Over-population? There are over 1.2 million illegal immigrants coming in each year right now, (and probably more). They are here whether we have the immigration policy or not. The concern is simple; why allow reasonable immigration from other countries, but not from Mexico? Why? The answer from the conservatives usually talks about over-population and there being too many now who come in illegally. So let me get this straight, we don't allow them to come here legally, they come anyway, and our argument is that we can't make it legal because there are too many already here. Okay.

Too many? Are there 'too many' blacks; 'too many' Irish; 'too many' Italians; 'too many' English; 'too many' Native Amerians? If we agree that there are too many, who gets to decide what there are too many of? Are we choosing the Hispanics because "we were here first?" I don't think jc wants to go down that road, especially if he lives in "Ute" tah. Or in New "Mexico." Either one makes the point. Oh wait, we are choosing the Hispanics because they are here illegally and need to leave. Hold that thought for now.

America is the greatest land on earth; greatest of all time. I am grateful to my heritage who came here legally. They had Ellis Island to do it. The Mexicans do not have an Ellis Island. Are they less deserving than we? I only hope that if my own personal heritage did not have an Ellis Island, that they would have come anyway. I, and jc, could be a Scottish Campbell right now, but our government allowed immigration; we had our Ellis Island.

To jc, don't just be glad yourself that you are an American (and don't want anyone else to be), be glad that our (yours and mine) skin isn't brown. The conservatives (you I guess) would be doing all they (you I guess) could be doing to keep (us I guess) out.

Back to over-population, the baby-boomers are coming of age and there will continue to be more jobs than people to fill them. It's not 1983 any more (Dorothy is not in Kansas any more). Study after study has shown that the work done by illegal immigrants grows the economy. We get anecdotal stories of someone who isn't working because of illegal immigration, but the truth tells a different story. Find a study that says anything other than the simple fact that the work done by illegal immigrants grows the economy; find it and we can talk further. By the way, finding another anecdotal story spins the truth, it doesn't address it.

What's not good for the economy, and yours and my pocket book, is that the hiring illegal immigrants means that they don't have health insurance. If we get in a car wreck with one or twelve, they don't have auto insurance. If they are not on an offical payroll, they don't pay taxes. WHY? Because we don't allow them to come here legally. Make provisions for legal immigration and they can get health insurance, car insurance and pay taxes. By the way, in Utah, they can, and most do, get an worker number and pay taxes--something that you will not hear a conservative talk about much. It hurts their agrument and reduces their passion on the subject. In spite of all of the above, study after study still shows an economic benefit to illegal immigration. Just think how much better that benefit would be if we allowed legal immigration.

There is the issue of health care costs. They are sky-rocketing and illegal immigration makes it worse. So, go ahead, let's not allow legal immigration and then continue to complain about health care costs. Go ahead. The three-year old illegal Hispanic girl who needs an appendectomy to live could care less, and niether could I.

Finally, the solution is not one side of this issue or the other; it is in the dailogue. jc is part of the solution, because unless he is heard (along with everyone else of similar views and passion) we will never, ever come to a resolution. I, along with everyone else who shares my views and my passion on the subject, are not the answer. jc, along with everyone who shares his views and his passion on the subject, are also not the answer. Together, we can discover the answer, but it needs be done together. Thus, this blog.

Response to comments about my orginal post

First, and very foremost, I could not be more proud of my son, jc -blogger name - and his views about my original post. I am far, far more excited about his views than I am my own. HOWEVER, that does not mean I agree with his views. I don't, but I stand proud that he has them and expresses them so well.

Regarding breaking the law, my point is that it really does depend on our perspective. The perspective of the English just prior to the American Revolution, and certainly during it, is that we were a bunch of renegades. We were and we not only broke their laws, we went to war to eliminate them and create our own. Our perspective, however, was our own freedom. Sound familiar? What would we do if we lived in Mexico and looked down at our feet and then looked north? What would we do if the American government had no reasonable provisions for our immigrating (and we don't)? What would we do? Remember, we do not have the option of coming here legally; not from Mexico anyway. What would we do? (If you don't agree that you can't come here legally from Mexico in any reasonable way, then you simply don't understand the reality as it exists today).

When you really take a minute and try to understand their perspective, does it soften the hardness of your position on the matter?

So, does that mean the Hispanics who come here illegally have just cause? NO. But it does mean they have their own perspective in doing it. To them, it is the price to be paid. For our American forefathers, war was the price to be paid. These examples are not meant to justify illegally immigration, only to understand it better and allow it to motivate changes in the immigration policy, or lack of it.

To those of us who exceed the speed limit from time to time, our perspective is carelessness, negligence, and sometimes even callous disregard. To the police officer, it is only the latter. If you have never, ever exceeded the speed limit, then go ahead and preach the importance of keeping the law in absolutely every case. If you have exceeded the speed limit, then please consider the difference that YOUR perspective has on the issue. If, for you, it is an absolute issue, breaking the law or not, then turn yourself in for every time you exceeded the speed limit and didn't get caught. I think the right term here is 'understanding the perspective,' or not. Understanding it does not mean we agree with it. It just means we can and do understand it.

Regarding taking jobs we don't want, jc's father-in-law can move to California and pick walnuts tomorrow. Sorry jc, but I know the employment picture pretty well and there are more jobs right now than there are people to fill them.

Also, the conservative Republicans can take forever to increase the minimum wage if they want (and they are), but the job market has already done it. A grocery store chain had a sign on one of their store's entrances that read, "Stocker wanted--$9.50 per hour." To jc, I honestly don't think the illegal immigrants are taking any job that your father-in-law would want. If he really wants a job, I have thousands to send him to.

Back to my point at the beginning of this post, I am far more proud of my son's posts than my own; even my latest. What I hope we can come to is the old trite "Let's agree to disagree." It may be trite and very overused, but it has its place and this is one of them.

So, at the end of the day, what does all this mean? For me, it means that we need to put into place a "reasonable" immigration policy and then close the border. Close it tight.

The Browning of America

Boy, if we’re not careful, and if we don’t begin to do something about immigration, we will see the browning of America just keep going and going and going. Hasn’t our country already suffered enough? After all, we have spent over 500 years bleaching America; going from red to white. These color changes can really change a society, if we’re not careful.

If we’re not careful, we will let the browning of America change our opinion about taking care of the elderly. You see, 78 percent of Hispanics actually believe a family should care for an elderly mother or father while only 46 percent of the rest of us believe such a thing.

If we’re not careful, we will see more and more of our society being against abortion as 80 percent of those Hispanics (yes, 80 percent) are actually against abortion while only 57 percent of the rest of us are against it. Wow, we’d just better be careful.

If we’re not careful, we will see more of a focus on our family rather than the great opportunities that capitalism brings to our society. Family first, job second. Can you imagine such a thing? Henry Ford would roll over in his grave. I, for one, am really glad he is not here to see this.

If we’re not careful, we will lose all those jobs that I am sure many of the rest of us want at less than minimum wage, with no insurance and certainly no retirement. There are so many who want to pick that fruit in the hot sun and sacrifice their earning power for the rest of us. If those darn Hispanics just we’re here, I know the lines would be long for those physically demanding jobs.

Oh, speaking of physically demanding jobs, can you imagine the weight problem we are going to begin to have if we can’t do that physical work those darn Hispanics are taking from us? Lack of exercise and the subsequent weight increase will bulge our health care costs, along with our waist lines, that is, if we’re not careful.

And finally, after all, breaking the law is breaking the law. Exceptions should never, ever be tolerated. Our revolutionary forefathers revolted against English law, but that was for a good cause, our freedom (and not the freedom of those Hispanics down south of us). Well, those crazy ancestors of ours, who bought alcohol during prohibition, broke the law and that law changed. But, again, that was for a good caus…oops, just never mind about that. You see, if we’re not careful, breaking the law will actually change the law. The next thing you know, we’ll change the speed limit from “Stay alive at 55” to some unsafe speed limit just because so many people are breaking that law. Oh wait, we’ve already done that. See, I told you so.

Now, with the fun part brought into check, I just hope we can tone down the rhetoric on both sides of this escalating issue. While there are some from Mexico who really do want to take California back, most from Mexico do not. While there are some who do bring in illegal drugs and are even criminals trying to avoid justice in Mexico, most are not. The bottom-line—can’t we please focus more on the most and tone down the rhetoric about the exception to the most.

On the other side of the issue, can’t you work harder for adequate immigration laws and less on demands for immediate acceptance, right now, amnesty and all? Yes, fight to be treated fairly, but accept where you are and your current illegal status and work hard to change it; with a unified voice, not a demanding and often threatening one.

There are those who want to build a wall to hold the Mexicans back at the border. Can’t you just picture a world leader telling our president, maybe twenty or thirty years from now, “Mr. President, tear down that wall”? Yes, I know, the Berlin Wall was to keep people in and this wall is to keep people out. But, for those from Mexico, the effect is the same. HOWEVER, until we solve this problem, our open borders leave us vulnerable in ways that should down right scare the liver out of us. The point is, I hope there is a better way to solve the problem without building a dang wall.

As for health care costs for those who are illegal, the best solution is a job that recognizes their legal status as workers and offers a group health insurance option (and this, of course, applies to all of us, not just immigrants). The key word in that phase is “group” to help keep the costs down. A sick four-year-old child who needs to have an inflamed appendix removed doesn’t care if his parents are legal or not, or if his parents have health insurance or not. We all want a better health care system and let’s hope that includes everyone.

Congress gets close to a resolution, then is appears to fall apart once more, literally one day to the next. The conservatives can warm their hearts just a degree or two—just enough to listen a little closer to the other side, and the liberals can truly address the vulnerability an open border gives us, and health care costs and other social issues associated with immigration, just enough to listen a little more to the other side. Both sides—More listening to truly understand, to truly appreciate and to truly address. I am absolutely sure we will not find the answers until both sides do more listenting and less talking.

Until then, if it ever happens at all, I, for one, look forward to “the browning of America” and the changes in our society that come with it.